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Geographical confusion

Geographical confusion

James McGrath (View posts)
Posted: 16 Sep 2004 2:49PM GMT
Classification: Lookup
Searching through microfilmed church records, I've found an
additional hundred years of one of my family names. The bad news? I need help confirming I'm looking in the right place! According to the information I had, Szepesvaralja and Kolbach are in the same parish, and roughly equivalent to modern Spisske Podhradie. However, I found some information suggesting that Szepes-Varallya (another spelling of the name) is actually Spisska Nova Ves. The FHC
catalogue lists Spisska Nova Ves as being the equivalent of Igló-Hutta. I'm confused! The information I had was that my great-great-grandfather was from Kirchdrauf, which I believed to also be known as Kolbach. My great-grandfather is listed as being born in Szepes, Varalja. Ive been searching diligently
in FHC microfilm 1739896. Can anyone help me to clarify whether I've been searching in the right place?

Thanks for any help anyone can give me on this point!

James McGrath

Re: Geographical confusion

Posted: 16 Sep 2004 4:03PM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 13 Nov 2006 3:35PM GMT
James

The present town of Spisske Podhradie had / went by following names : Kirchdorf, Szepes-Varallya, Podhr{a}dze, Szepesvarallya, Kirchdrauf, Podhradi, Podgrodzie, Szepesvarallja and Szepesvaralja.

The village of Kolbach is Studenec in Spis region

http://mapy.atlas.sk for locating a town in SK

Thank you!

James McGrath (View posts)
Posted: 16 Sep 2004 4:11PM GMT
Classification: Query
Thank you, that helps clarify things. Do you think I can assume that the references to Spisska Nova Ves as Varallya on the web - all of which relate to a particular composer who was born there - stem from a mistake? Or would they have been part of a common regional or parish grouping 150 years ago?

Thank you again for your help!

James

Re: Thank you!

Posted: 16 Sep 2004 5:21PM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 13 Nov 2006 3:35PM GMT
Your welcome, James

It is possible that it is a mistake. How well do you know the source that wrote that? I know that Varallya is a Magyar / Hungarian word maybe ? for Podhorod / Podhradie.
You see that village of Studenec is 1 km from Spisske Podhradie and Spisska Nova Ves (rough estimate 24 km) from SP.
The town of Spisska Nova Ves went by : Iglo, Neudorf, Nowa Wes, Iglovia, Szepesiglo.

www.adc.sk/english/slovakia/slovak04.htm

I have posted some websites to your http://slovakia.eunet.sk query.

Spisske Podhradie

James McGrath (View posts)
Posted: 16 Sep 2004 5:54PM GMT
Classification: Query
Surnames: Czibilka
Yes, I'm sure you are right. The page that got me worried is http://www.musicaltheatreguide.com/composers/czibulka/alphon... which probably has the right Hungarian name for the town Czibilka was from, but identified it with the wrong modern town.

Thank you for helping to put my mind at rest! :-)

James

Re: Spisske Podhradie

Posted: 16 Sep 2004 8:42PM GMT
Classification: Query
James,
I checked with Arcanum.hu, Szepes-Váralja is correct for birthplace, your musical source's Slovak name is wrong:

Czibulka,
1. Alfonz, zeneszerzõ, szül. Szepes-Váralján 1842 máj. 14. Katonai karnagy Bécsben; számos kedvelt tánc-zenemûvet irt; operettjei: Pünkösd Firenzében (1884), A szerencselovag (1889).

2. C. Nándor dr., apátkanonok, született Pozsonyban 1840 febr. 27. Gimnáziumi tanulmányait szülõföldjén, a hittani folyamot Pesten végezte. Pappá szenteltetett 1862 jul. 17. Tanár és tanulmányi felügyelõ elõbb a pozsonyi Emericanumban, majd az esztergomi nagyobb papnevelõben. 1870. lelkipásztor a budapesti középponti papnevelõben, mely hivatalában csász. és kir. udvari káplánná neveztetett. 1888 febr. 12. esztergomi kanonokká és ugyanoda papnevelõházi kormányzóvá, 1889 dec. 20. cikádori apáttá lett.

You're correct, Kolbach's R.Cath. records are with Szepesváralja. About the different spellings, in Hungarian the "ly" letter combination is a separate letter, and sounds the same as the letter "j", and such was misused until finally it was regulated by language rules around 1900.

Igló-Hutta is just So. from Igló.

Re: Geographical confusion

Lajos Reich (View posts)
Posted: 17 Sep 2004 11:54AM GMT
Classification: Query
James,
I would like to suplement the absolutely correct information, what my friend, J.L.K. gave you.
I am not surprised about your troubles by the names of the towns. Those are one of the most popular crooked means of the ultranationalists. The present is very sad, and the interest of some groups is to mislead the people, especially who are living farer, like America. The towns, what you seeked, are ancient Hungarian towns, but the interest of some groups of the actual Slovakian policy to deny the facts. Then, of course, you, who are living far and do not know the small pieces of the history and geography, will be misleaded and in trouble: what could be the true?....... It is soooo sad.

Szepes county got its name of fort Szepes, 1000 years ago.
The towns which you seek are:
Szepesváralja, is translated on wrong mirror way to Slovakian to Spissky Podhradie. This form of the naming a town is not rare in the Hungarian. The turn of the Hungarian is near the impossible to translate to other languages, maybe it could be from word to word: Down of fort Szepes. The "-ja" means here: "something of something or somebody" The towns were named in this way, when the town and the fort were not built together. Its German name is/was Kirchdrauf or Kirchdorf. Means: Village of the church(or more exactly, but the inflection is dumb: Village with church) . It is also an interesting historical thing, you can find it only in the Hungarian and in the Finnish (Kirkonkyle)
Igló in German is Iglau, and the new power gave the name Spisska Nova Ves for this. It means: New Place of Szepes (county) (the line of my Saxon ancestors are from Iglo)
Kolbach was originally Hidegpatak, the German settlers translated it to German from word to word. Means Coldcreek.
One more fact you have to know: in that area settled a lot of people with German mother-tongue, from the age of St Stephan, but they have been absoulute Hungarian hearted, even sometimes they did not know Hungarian....... :-)
Have a good research!
Lajos

Re: Spisske Podhradie

Lajos Reich (View posts)
Posted: 17 Sep 2004 12:11PM GMT
Classification: Query
James,
I would like to suplement the absolutely correct information, what my friend, J.L.K. gave you.
I am not surprised about your troubles by the names of the towns. Those are one of the most popular crooked means of the ultranationalists. The present is very sad, and the interest of some groups is to mislead the people, especially who are living farer, like America. The towns, what you seeked, are ancient Hungarian towns, but the interest of some groups of the actual Slovakian policy to deny the facts. Then, of course, you, who are living far and do not know the small pieces of the history and geography, will be misleaded and in trouble: what could be the true?....... It is soooo sad.

Szepes county got its name of fort Szepes, 1000 years ago.
The towns which you seek are:
Szepesváralja, is translated on wrong mirror way to Slovakian to Spissky Podhradie. This form of the naming a town is not rare in the Hungarian. The turn of the Hungarian is near the impossible to translate to other languages, maybe it could be from word to word: Down of fort Szepes. The "-ja" means here: "something of something or somebody" The towns were named in this way, when the town and the fort were not built together. Its German name is/was Kirchdrauf or Kirchdorf. Means: Village of the church(or more exactly, but the inflection is dumb: Village with church) . It is also an interesting historical thing, you can find it only in the Hungarian and in the Finnish (Kirkonkyle)
Igló in German is Iglau, and the new power gave the name Spisska Nova Ves for this. It means: New Place of Szepes (county) (the line of my Saxon ancestors are from Iglo)
Kolbach was originally Hidegpatak, the German settlers translated it to German from word to word. Means Coldcreek.
One more fact you have to know: in that area settled a lot of people with German mother-tongue, from the age of St Stephan, but they have been absoulute Hungarian hearted, even sometimes they did not know Hungarian....... :-)
Have a good research!
Lajos

Re: Spisske Podhradie

Posted: 17 Sep 2004 4:00PM GMT
Classification: Query
Surnames: Palagyi
Just to add my amateur translation from Slovak name without knowing detailed history.

Spisske Podhradie

SPIS = I think that Spis (area in slovakia) would be slovak version of Szepes. In this case it would mean name of castle (or fort) Spis (Spissky Hrad)

spisSKE = being part of Spis

POD = under

HRAD = castle

PODHRADIE = place located uder castle (surroundings)

So in the end... it is same name as in hungarian.

Spisske Podhradie = area under (down) of the castle (fort) that was named Spis (Szepes)

Regards,
Peter

Re: Spisske Podhradie

Lajos Reich (View posts)
Posted: 20 Sep 2004 6:43AM GMT
Classification: Query
Peter,
your name is Hungarian, your ancestors are Hungarians and no Slovaks. Why your documents are written in Slovakian I have only some hypotheses, but probably these documents were written in as age, as when the Hungarian language have been used not officially in Czechoslovakia.
By the way I looked the translation of Szepesváralja. That is correct. The Slavs translated it like mirror translation, like most of the names of the towns in the descendant countries. By this cause these translations usually did not mean the original Hungarian name (EG: Belgrade, which was named in Hungarian: Nándorfehérvár, and that means: "Free castle in the Bulgarian border"). Szepesváralja was translated to Slavic fortunatelly as way, as its meaning did not changed.
Lajos
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